Pages

Friday, 16 August 2024

The riots represent a moment of choice for post-Brexit Britain

It’s hopefully not premature to say the literal, if not the metaphorical, dust has settled on last week’s riots. I’ve waited to write about them as I’m not a fan of ‘hot takes’ on big events, which are often foolish, and prefer to let a little time to pass before commenting. At the same time, I’m breaking my planned August break from posting because I think that it’s important to record the riots as a part of the Brexit saga. That doesn’t mean that Brexit caused the riots, but there are some connections between them. Equally, the fact of the riots having happened could pave the way for a new and better conversation about immigration in post-Brexit Britain.

The riots

Keir Starmer correctly called the riots “far-right thuggery” which had “no justification”, and it was refreshing to have a Prime Minister unequivocally doing so, and not back-tracking in the face of criticism. Some of that criticism was dishonest, denying that any of the culprits were of the far-right. Some of it was obtuse, in interpreting Starmer’s comments as a claim that all those who took to the streets were of the far-right. It’s true, of course, that some of them were anti-immigration without necessarily being doctrinaire fascists; that some were just thugs; that some were opportunistic looters and vandals; that some were inadequates and idiots. Still, at the hard centre of the riots were far-right activists and their sinister online allies. The far-right didn’t tag along with the crowd, the crowd tagged along with them. So Starmer’s description was correct. Indeed in some ways it was an understatement: some of the far-right thugs would better be described as lynch mobs.

Given that other elements were present, Starmer was also correct to talk about the riots in terms of mindless criminality, but this was manifestly a different truth to describing them as far-right. For, to the extent the violence was politically motivated, it was not ‘mindless’ and nor was it simply ‘criminality’. The use of violence for political ends is usually called terrorism, even if calls to treat the riots as such have not been heeded, at least so far. And this does not just apply to the doctrinaire fascists. Any of the rioters whose motivation was to change immigration policy, far-right or not, were attempting to change policy by means of violence. If people wanted a severe reduction of immigration, then, just a few weeks ago, they had an election when they could have voted for a party, Reform UK, pledging just that. Only 14% of voters did so.

That choice was also available to the rioters if they are understood in terms of the softer interpretation of their political motivation, which has been deployed very widely by people who range from disingenuous apologists to some well-meaning liberals. On this interpretation these were not so much riots as political ‘protests’ which arose because the country has failed to have an ‘honest conversation’ about immigration, or failed to discuss it at all, with the result that immigration levels are far higher than ‘most people’ or ‘ordinary people’ want. On such accounts, the riots, even if not justified in their violence, reflect a legitimate and respectable grievance that ‘uncontrolled immigration’ has been forced on the public without their support or consent.

And this is where Brexit comes in, because of course we’ve heard all this before. In fact we’ve heard it for decades, but never more so than during the referendum campaign, though the honesty of that conversation can certainly be questioned.

Back to Brexit

There’s no doubt that hostility to immigration was one of the main drivers of the vote to leave, but, rather as in some of the commentary about the riots, there was a studied delineation of the ‘respectable’ and the ‘unrespectable’ approaches to this. Vote Leave, the official campaign, was at pains to distance itself from the much harsher anti-immigrant message of Farage and Leave.EU. This enabled the overall vote for Brexit to be boosted by providing different ‘channels’ to corral voters to the ‘leave’ box. For all their subsequent protestations, the ‘liberal Brexiters’ knew that they could only win by enrolling many distinctly illiberal voters. Even more disingenuously, whilst happily harvesting such votes, some of them claimed that Brexit would spike the far-right, by removing the ‘grievance’ of ‘uncontrolled immigration’.

Thus many who voted Brexit believed they had been promised that immigration would not just be made subject to national control but would be reduced and, for at least some of them, the belief was that there would be fewer Muslims and less black and brown people entering the country. The campaign also cynically, and quite deliberately, conflated the issue of freedom of movement for EU citizens with refugee flows from outside the EU, especially Syria, and exploited Islamphobia in multiple ways, including the lie that Turkey was about to join the EU.

Actually, all that had been explicitly promised, even by Farage, was an ‘Aussie-style’ points system for immigration from anywhere, including the EU. This was even sold to ethnic minority voters with non-European, especially Commonwealth, roots as a way not of clamping down on immigration but of creating parity between people from their countries of origin and those from EU countries. Indeed some Brexiters even suggested that EU freedom of movement was inherently racist, implying to some voters that Brexit should be understood as an anti-racist, anti-discrimination project at the very moment it was being implied to other voters that it was anything but that.

As I discussed at length in a post last year, the inconsistency of the appeals to voters set up a massive problem as regards immigration, just as it did in every other aspect of Brexit, after the Leave campaign’s unexpected and unplanned for victory. Of course, we know what happened. In brief, having decided, initially under Theresa May, that, more than anything, Brexit meant ending freedom of movement in order to control immigration, Brexit was enacted as hard Brexit, with all the damage that entailed. But when EU freedom of movement was ended, immigration from the rest of the world soared, precisely because, under a ‘points-based system’, it was mandated.

This wasn’t because of some ‘globalist’ plot, or the wokeish multi-culturalism of the ‘liberal elite’, let alone evidence of the obscene ‘race replacement’ conspiracy theory. It was because businesses and public services would have literally collapsed otherwise. But it also meant, in very broad terms, that it became more likely that immigrants had black and brown skins and more likely they would be of non-Christian faith. As for irregular migration, if anything Brexit exacerbated it by removing the UK from the Dublin Regulations.

So, to the extent that those who voted for Brexit wanted lower immigration, including those who did so for straightforwardly racist reasons, it left them completely unsatisfied. Rather than spike the far-right, Brexit has given them a new grievance.

Whose country?

Thus in 2016 Farage declared “it’s been a hell of a journey but we have got our country back”, in what he called “a victory for ordinary, decent people”, yet in 2024 we still have people like Lee Anderson, now a Reform MP, whining bellicosely that "he wants his country back"*. It is no coincidence that the same phrase was chanted at the recent ‘Tommy Robinson’ rally, showing the continuities between the would-be respectable Brexiter politicians and those who, by any reasonable definition, are of the far-right.

For Farage, Anderson, Robinson, and those they represent, this is because Brexit has been betrayed, but the reality is that their demands could no more be satisfied after Brexit than before Brexit. For the deeper truth is not just that those demands couldn’t be satisfied without doing massive damage, including to the public services upon which those making those demands rely, it is that even if that damage was done it still wouldn’t be enough to satisfy them. They would shift to demanding not just an end to immigration, but the repatriation of immigrants, and then of the descendants of immigrants who are not ‘really British’ (a recurring theme within far-right ideology).

We can either go on trying to appease these unappeasable demands or have the honesty and courage to say that they are unrealistic and do not constitute ‘legitimate concerns’. Or, to put that in a more positive way, to have the honesty and courage to say that most people accept, and many are more than happy, that our country is multi-cultural, multi-race, multi-faith. This isn’t just a pious or unevidenced claim. Polling this week from More in Common shows that 48% of people are proud “that Britain is a multi-ethnic society”, 45% are neither proud nor ashamed of it, and only 7% are ashamed of it. In that sense, the Anderson-type desire to ‘have my country back’ is not an innocent demand for restitution made by the many, it’s an authoritarian demand by the few for the imposition of their narrow version of what the country should be.

To accept or welcome multi-culturalism isn’t to make some Pollyannaish claim that all immigrants are good people. Why should they be? They will include the vicious and the depraved, and the saints and the saviors, just as the ’indigenous’ population does. Nor is it simply about an abstract principle of diversity, though that is a principle which plenty of people would support. It’s also about economic realism, with which comes the need to be realistic about the families of immigrant workers and students, and geo-political realism about what drives refugees and asylum seekers. The latter actually affects the UK less than many countries, but it isn’t going to disappear and, yes, it does create moral obligations on all countries, including this one.

From this perspective, the riots do show that Britain has an integration problem. But it isn’t the integration of immigrants, who mostly do so (probably rather more than most British ‘expats’, if truth be told), at least within a generation. The problem is the integration of a small percentage of stubbornly monocultural, and sometimes violent, white, mainly English men. They’ve had Brexit, with all the damage it has done. They’ve had the ‘hostile environment policy’, with all the misery it has caused. They’ve had an immigration system which, far from being uncontrolled, is tightly regulated, expensive, has left many sectors with endemic staff shortages and has banjaxed universities. But they’re still not satisfied. The issue isn’t that mainstream politics has not given enough attention to them, it’s that it has bent over backwards to do so.

I know only too well what the nationalist populists would say to all this: typical condescending globalist elitism from an out-of-touch academic. The irony is that the real condescension is the populist promise of something which is impossible to deliver in practice, as happened with Brexit and, for that matter, with successive Tory manifesto pledges of immigration caps. Equally condescending are those well-meaning liberals who insist that we must strive to ‘understand’ the concerns of the rioters, or to insist that their racism is actually just the cri de coeur of the disadvantaged. But we already understand them, and we’ve already tried to meet their concerns. It hasn’t worked, and it will never work. Whatever we do, they will still be angry, and still claim ‘their country’ has been stolen from them, just as they always have, irrespective of immigration levels, and irrespective of EU membership, decade after decade, including at those periods which, currently, they revere as the lost past of true England that they wish to reclaim.

After the riots

The riots have seemingly been quelled, partly as a result of robust policing and the rapid disposition of firm legal justice for the rioters and their on-line provocateurs. That has led to squeals from far-right apologists, with entirely bogus claims about ‘two-tier justice’ and ‘thoughtcrime’ prosecutions. In fact, it was liberal democracy in action: on the one hand, political arguments should not be advanced through violence, on the other hand, free speech is not a licence for incitement to violence. What’s more, the police response was not seen as excessive by the public, with only 7% thinking it was ‘too harsh’ whilst 42% thought it was ‘too soft’.

The riots were also partly quelled by the thousands of counter-demonstrators and by the evident disdain of the thousands who turned out to repair the damage the rioters had caused. These are the ‘ordinary, decent people’ of our country, not the neo-Nazis and their tag-along mobs. Again that claim isn’t simply rhetoric but is supported by the polling evidence from More in Common which shows, amongst other things, that only 13% think the rioters represent ‘the real Britain’ but 87% think that those engaged in the clean-up do so. Meanwhile, only 23% think the riots stem from ‘legitimate concerns’ and a mere 17% think those involved in them are ‘standing up for Britain’.

So this was not some popular uprising, and that is a crucial point. One of the things which distinguishes populism in the UK from that in other countries is, precisely, Brexit. The referendum put a single populist policy to the electorate and the majority voted for it (let’s please leave aside the cretinous point that it was ‘only’ a majority of those who voted – that’s how democracy works). That emboldened the populists to claim (and perhaps to believe) not just, as they always have done, that they spoke for the ‘silent majority’, but that they represented an actual, permanent majority for all populist policies, especially as regards immigration.

It was always nonsense, and they are still peddling it by claiming the riots represent a popular revolt against ‘uncontrolled immigration’. Indeed, it’s hard to resist the sense that for the far right and some of its apologists there was a salivating hope that the riots marked the moment when ‘the people’ finally rose up against ‘the elite’ (it reminds me of how, when I was student, my left-wing friends and I were always predicting that some moment of crisis heralded the final collapse of capitalism under the weight of its own contradictions). If so, small wonder that they are so angry about the way that Starmer’s new government, rather calmly and undramatically, but highly effectively, restored order.

A moment of choice

With the riots now, hopefully, over, their aftermath therefore presents a moment of choice for post-Brexit Britain. People of all types voted to leave the EU for all sorts of reasons. It would be absurd to deny that some who did so have a similar agenda to the rioters or their sympathisers, but equally absurd to claim that all or even most of them had that agenda. And, of course, many voted to remain. So post-Brexit Britain does not belong to the rioters and their sympathisers, any more than this country should be defined by the image of ‘their country’. If, as many Brexiters say, the purpose was solely to take back sovereignty and so, as regards immigration, to make our own choices about that, then we are now perfectly entitled to have whatever immigration policy we, collectively, want.

It is certainly reasonable to demand that this immigration policy be framed by honest discussion. The first place to start with that is for those who call for much lower, or even zero, immigration to be honest about what they propose the country would have to go without, including in terms of public services, if their policies were pursued. It’s easy enough to say ‘stop mass immigration’ until the effects start to bite. For example, when, as has happened in the last year, immigration applications to work in health and social care have fallen by 82%, it emerges that 64% of the public view this as a negative development and only 16% see it as a positive development. No responsible politician, in power, could come anywhere near stopping immigration, or in some periods stopping what critics call ‘mass immigration’, and so no responsible politician, out of power, can honestly advocate doing so. 

There’s also a need for a different kind of honesty, from those who are ‘pro-immigration’ as much as those who are against it, and that is to stop the conflation of at least three different things: immigration which is largely about the labour market, immigration which is about students, and immigration which is about asylum seekers and refugees. When these distinctions are put to the public in opinion polls, what is revealed is that, far from anti-immigration sentiment being dominant it is actually much more nuanced. So whereas when asked about immigration in the abstract, 54% think it should be reduced, the only types of immigration for which there is majority support for a reduction in present numbers (as at January 2024) are people crossing the channel in small boats (68% want to see a reduction) and dependents of students (54% want to see a reduction, and this is now happening, with disastrous consequences for the UK’s universities). In all other categories there is majority support for the current or higher levels of immigration. In some cases that support is very high indeed (e.g. 82% for doctors, nurses, and care workers, 77% for their dependents, and even 55% for asylum seekers).

Of course, to the out-and-out racists, such distinctions don’t matter. Foreigners are foreigners, and so are their children and grandchildren. So it actually suits them if the rest of the public are not encouraged to draw those distinctions. Indeed there can be little doubt that the relentless focus on ‘stopping the boats’ suits the far-right agenda, by conflating the most unpopular form of immigration with all immigration (just as, during the referendum, the ‘migrant crisis’ was conflated with freedom of movement). All the more reason, then, why mainstream discourse should disentangle different forms of immigration, and create policies for each of them on their own terms. And, above everything else, all the more reason to refuse to frame that discourse in terms of the false claim that the far-right speak for the ‘ordinary, decent people’.

A fresh start?

The riots, and perhaps even more some of the apologism for them, have been both depressing and alarming, and for their targets literally terrifying. It’s tempting to see them as a kind of continuation of the xenophobia which was partly responsible for Brexit and perhaps enabled by Brexit. But in a roundabout way that plays into the hands of the populists who claim Brexit as some kind of mandate for draconian immigration controls, and who enrol post-Brexit immigration into their grievance politics.

Brexit was Brexit, and it has happened. The post-Brexit politics of immigration do not belong to the Brexit Ultras – it’s notable that Farage has found himself on the wrong side of public opinion this last week or so – and it is just possible that the public disdain for the riots will turn out to be the moment when a new conversation emerges. How likely is that? Well, rather obviously, it depends on who chooses to participate in it, what they say, and how loud they say it. For too long it has been dominated by the voices of  a loud minority, which last week came to a crescendo with the raucous cries of the mob and the insidious dogwhistling of their ‘respectable’ apologists. For now they have been, if not silenced, then at least slightly subdued. What happens next is up to the rest of us.

 

*Risibly, but also disgracefully, Lee Anderson, usually so ‘tough’ on law and order, sought to defend the rioters as just “British working-class lads” who had “probably had one too many” and “got carried away”.

Note: my normal practice if I claim that certain things are being widely said is to link to evidence in the form of a study demonstrating that this is so, or at least to a high-profile example. However, doing so for some things in this post would require linking to the absolute dregs of online vileness, which I would prefer not to do.

On a separate matter, I’m hugely appreciative of all the kind comments on the previous post in response to my request for preferences about the future of this blog. I’m still considering how to proceed, but I am quite overwhelmed by the response. Thank you.

84 comments:

  1. Another brilliant analysis of the state we’re in - please don’t stop!

    ReplyDelete
  2. I write as a reader that hasn't missed a post since 2017. In that time, there have been times that I nearly contacted you to thank you for your work, but laziness prevailed when I saw many others thanking you.

    There are three reasons I think this blog is important. Firstly, I suspect I speak for many readers when I say that while I share many of the interpretations of the events you chronicle before I read each post, I would (and do) struggle to articulate those thoughts and views coherently in conversation with others or, perhaps more importantly for reasons of sanity, to myself. It is only through setting things out logically and clearly that one is able to reliably interrogate one's own views, without which none of us can be confident of our position beyond the surety of the dreaded gut feeling that can often be difficult to disentangle from suspicions of personal bias and circular reasoning borne of our own personal politics.

    Secondly, since 2016 and perhaps to a lesser extent beforehand with the rise of the rapid news cycle, information overload and social media, the importance of the presence of an abiding calm, rational voice, cannot be overstated. You may never be recognised by the nation as a whole for being the thinking person's Stephen Fry or whatever, for you use the necessary number of words ('too many'), but be in no doubt that to your tens of thousands of readers, to say that you are the "[b]est guy to follow on Brexit" is to deny the real importance of your work. You are a titan of political analysis and commentary and a wonderful writer. Of course, your values of integrity and honesty, and your evidence-based approach, stand to make your writing unassailable.

    Thirdly, while there are others with plenty sensible to say, this blog represents one of the most consolidated and reliable sources of information on which future historians may draw. (It is not your job of course, but it would help historians further if the articles and other sites to which you link were preserved on the Wayback Machine or equivalent. If you ever stop writing this blog, and perhaps even if you don't, the blog must surely be published as a stand-alone book, with one volume per decade.)

    What of the future of this blog? You will choose the frequency, but my preference would be for a blog not less than an average of once every two or three weeks. It would seem to make sense to move to a model that allows you to post more or less, depending on what you have to say. I have but one request. You sometimes stray from strict Brexit (while staying within your unwritten rules on connections to Brexit). While Brexit and your unwritten rules give your readers the reward of reading your thoughts on (eg) elections and riots, in addition to import controls, I would rather you give yourself more of a free hand, and the historians an even easier time. You could, for example, trial some shorter posts--like a Tweet+++ ?--on non-Brexit matters (even by your rules) about which you feel you've something to share, before evaluating the inevitably positive responses. With strictly Brexit posts reducing in number, this might enable you to give us, the nation, more with less.

    Whatever you decide - thank you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for taking the time to write this very generous comment

      Delete
    2. I very much second this. Bravo!

      Delete
    3. Great comment. I agree so much with this!

      Delete
    4. Add a very sincere “hear, hear” to this and heartfelt thanks for the clear-sighted sanity your blog brings.

      Delete
    5. Couldn't agree more!

      Delete
    6. Another "hear hear" from me!

      Delete
    7. Totally agree - only recently came across your work, it’s excellent. I much prefer blogs to tweets, and just having this thoughtful commentary on important issues showing on in the country is so useful.

      Delete
    8. Fully agree. Thank you so much for all you have done and for what you go on to do.

      Delete
    9. Absolutely agree with the above. Couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you...

      Delete
    10. Completely agree. V good comment. And excellent blog that I look forward to reading. Please continue it at whatever rate suits you, but for me, the more frequent the better. It's normally the first thing I turn to on a Friday morning.

      Delete
  3. Missing ‘of’ - ‘the imposition their narrow version of what the country should be.’

    ReplyDelete
  4. I was born in the UK and have my degrees from UK universities. However, I have lived outside the UK for 45 years (NZ, US, France). I am what May described as "a citizen of nowhere - you don't know what citizenship means ". Intended as a profoundly derogatory remark, I wear it as a badge of honour. I find it easier to take a helicopter view of the UK's problems.

    I read your article with keen anticipation. I hope you will not take it amiss if I say I was disappointed. Not, let me hasten to say, because I disagree with what you say, as far as it goes. Rather, I was disappointed because it is a very British view of Britain's problems.

    Take the NHS as an example. It is probably not hyperbole to say it is close to collapse. It would probably do so but for an influx of foreign health professionals from non-EU sources. You say: "The first place to start (with that) is for those who call for much lower, or even zero, immigration to be honest about what they propose the country would have to go without, including in terms of public services, if their policies were pursued." The affected country you focus on is the UK. There is no mention or consideration of the effects of UK immigration policy on those other countries that have paid for the education of these health and social care workers, nor the damage done to their own health infrastructure by Britain acting as an employment sink. This is cheapskate Britain, where a Conservative government acted as a monopoly employer to drive remuneration of UK health professionals down and replace them with labour from parts of the third world. I don't see any evidence that a Labour government will radically change that policy. In trade union terms, it's known as scam labour.

    An honourable policy would be to pay native UK health workers a better reward for their skills, and be much more generous with UK foreign aid to the third world. No intelligent person seriously doubts that substantial efforts will be needed from now on by wealthy countries, such as the UK, to stabilise countries adversely affected by climate change, for example. By making these efforts, they would hope to mitigate some of the most egregious effects on their own populations in the years to come.

    The violent disorder of the past 2 weeks is indeed connected with Brexit, as you rightly say. How anyone can think a 4% fall in GDP and savage economic disruption can be without profound consequences is beyond comprehension. However, I look back at the history of the past 8 years to see who politically has consistently been making the connection between loss of wealth and a stable polity. The answer appears to be almost no-one. Certainly, no major political party. Sadly, they are all complicit in the dreadful outcome.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's a very fair criticism. I suppose my defence, if needed, is that I can only encompass so much within the ambit of this Blog's focus.

      Delete
  5. "let's please leave aside the cretinous point that it was 'only' a majority of those who voted – that's how democracy works."

    While I understand your frustration, the point is as bogus as two-tier justice in the context of our parliamentarian representative system, especially in a referendum without predetermined realities where multiple winning stakeholders have such opposing and contradictory beliefs. EG Single Market / Customs Union / FOM / Immigration / Buccaneering Britain / Protectionism

    Unfortunately, the "that's how democracy works" position led to philosophical circumstances where the logic implies your original statement had to be the 'truth', in that the press/government, opposition, leave constituency, and civil service had to bypass parliamentary democracy, the idea that MPs should act in the best interests of their constituents. Whereas previously, ADBJ would lay (or lie?) in front of bulldozers for his constituents. On the face of things, this argument had even less credence due to the constituency spread for Brexit. However, it doesn't make it any less true, especially considering the demographics. Without a shadow of a doubt, the nature of Brexit will hurt the young more than the old.

    Everything was exacerbated by the press, and the realisation within the Tory party that to come back from the precipice was unfathomable, leading the party itself to find alternative reasons (sovereignty/free trade) or engage in the contradictions.

    "That emboldened the populists to claim (and perhaps to believe) not just, as they always have done, that they spoke for the 'silent majority', but that they represented an actual, permanent majority for all populist policies, especially as regards immigration."

    The failure to properly call this out was an impossible task given the realities. I would suggest that this may be when and where the inflexion to populism moment happened.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. *ABDJ, I think.

      Delete
    2. Maybe the Blonde Toddler, or even Benito Johnsolini!

      Delete
    3. You could see all this as one of the many convulsions as the UK transitions from a parliamentary democracy (where parliament can do what they like with a majority) to a constitutional democracy (where some ideals are considered beyond even the powers of parliament to change).

      The UK has gotten along for a surprisingly long time with the idea the members of parliament are automatically decent people, and therefore there need be no check on their powers.

      Delete
  6. As insightful as always. The trouble is that the reasoned arguments are unlikely to have any impact on those who need to understand the consequences of their proposals and/or actions.

    ReplyDelete
  7. One under-discussed aspect of the post-Brexit immigration debate is the uneven impacts across society. Moving from a people & demand - led system (free movement) to a visa-based bureaucratic one has huge differences in impact between large organisations and small ones. It’s clear that big organisations, including fast food chains, released the problem that was coming, so invested in large numbers of visas (eg for people from India). In contrast, smaller organisations such as independent cafes or builders did not have the expertise, cash etc to do this & so have often reduced their services. The new income thresholds will increase this effect.

    ReplyDelete
  8. My take is a much simpler one. There is a widespread dissatisfaction in the UK with - and I'm deliberately using a French/EU term here - the 'contrat social' in the country. On the OECD's scales of inequality and social (im)mobility the UK lags at the bottom together with the US. Brexit has increased the deleterious effects of this by hampering the growth of the 'national cake', the GDP. Apart from 14 years of Tory policy impoverishing the poor and enriching the rich, growth of UK GDP has not kept pace with population growth and increasing costs from various sources, inflation only being one.
    People are dissatisfied and eventually they're going to lash out. Foreigners have been a traditional target throughout the ages, so there's nothing new here.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Welcome back!
    As I understand it, gross migration is around 1.2M (source BBC). I use the gross figure as that is the correct figure for ‘controlled’ immigration. Emigration is obviously uncontrolled and so government policy can only address the controlled figure (although it could set this based on an estimate of emigration). The figure for uncontrolled arrivals by boats is about 30,000, so some 2.5%. If the average rioter is 6 foot tall, uncontrolled immigration is a couple of inches of him.
    Is that really something to go rioting about when we have (e.g.) a completely stretched NHS, defence issues around Russia, inadequate housing, an economy that needs greening and a denuded natural environment?
    I’d also contrast police treatment of right-wing rioters with that of miners striking for their jobs and communities and Liverpool fans supporting their team. Which ‘tier’ of treatment did they get? Eh Musk?

    ReplyDelete
  10. Cool and rational. But many are not - they believed that “take back control” was code for “no more immigration” and now they feel betrayed. Would be good to analyse exactly how the “points-based” system led to so much net immigration under Johnson in particular. Ukraine and Hong Kong are part of that story but not the whole picture, with West Africa quietly becoming the source of many visa-based immigrants. Was this a necessary consequence of Brexit?

    ReplyDelete
  11. I seem to remember Tony Blair, before brexit, saying something to the effect that if the UK freedom of movement stopped, there would be more immigration from eg India, so if rightwingers hoped to stop immigration from the EU, there would be immigration from further away because the demand for workers in the UK would still draw people in

    ReplyDelete
  12. Chris, I've read every article of yours for years (via RSS), and your book, as a Brit in Canada. Somehow I missed your postscript to your last, but in common with all those who commented, I find your work hugely valuable. Please carry on at whatever pace you like, and thank you, thank you, thank you. All the best, Frank.

    ReplyDelete
  13. "let's please leave aside the cretinous point that it was 'only' a majority of those who voted – that's how democracy works."

    This is the one point that jars in an otherwise outstanding blog post. Yes, if the Brexit vote is treated the same as a first-past-the-post by-election, then that's 'democracy' at work. But it is surely not cretinous to say that such a momentous choice should have required a positive vote by at least 51% of the electorate, not just those who voted. More to the point, that actually only minority of the electorate chose Brexit gives the lie to the kind of people who continue to claim that it, and its hard anti-immigrant core, is "the will of the people."
    As Chris Grey shows in the statistics he quotes, that is far from true.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not only, as you say, a "momentous" choice, but one that cannot be completely reversed (even if the UK re-joined the EU), and one that cannot be reconsidered every five years. I was relieved when I first heard that Parliament would be asked to legislate for an advisory referendum, not the binding referendum that had been promised in the 2015 Conservative manifesto, because I naievely thought that the Government and Parliament would ensure that all issues relevant to such an important matter would be properly debated taking into account the Referendum result (in its context of malfeasance).

      I accept that for an advisory referendum there is no need for a supermajority to achieve the greater-than-50% figure that you mention. I even accept that for an advisory referendum it may be permissible to exclude some of those who would be most affected by the outcome from the franchise. But...

      there is nothing democratic about accepting the decision of the Prime Minister that the UK should leave the EU on the false basis that the Referendum was binding. Playing 'let's pretend' is not how democracy is supposed to work.

      Delete
  14. Very insightful and as thought-provoking as ever. Thank you Chris for your always sane, and occasionally challenging, take on what's happening in the country. As others have said far more eloquently, your posts have been a weekly highlight over the years and continue to be so as we move into the new territory of the post-election landscape.

    ReplyDelete
  15. I recall, campaigning against Brexit in my home town of Derby, being told more than once by passers-by that they backed Brexit to "get rid of the immigrants", by which of course they meant the long-established, third or even fourth-generation South Asian migrant communities which have long kept a large part of the local economy going.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. God did not see fit to distribute intelligence evenly!

      Delete
  16. I wrote the comment about Derby - i should also implore you not to stop Chris - you're a voice of sanity in the cacophony of the modern world, and we need you (mor than you need us? Where have I heard that before?)

    ReplyDelete
  17. Yet again a brilliant and insightful piece. Please keep them coming

    ReplyDelete
  18. Thank you for yet another well argued and well evidenced piece, Chris.

    Feeling a bit stung by your ‘cretinous’ reference, and with suitably abject apology for turning again to the notion that the EU Referendum was determined by ‘only a majority of those who voted’, I turn thereto!

    When you say ‘that’s how democracy works’ it’s not all democracies that work like that: some countries oblige citizens to vote in certain elections, don’t they?

    Also, democracies are supposed to ‘work’ with an informed electorate, aren’t they? How many could put hand on heart and swear that the British electorate was sufficiently (let alone well) informed about what we were voting for or against?

    Isn’t it possible to see the plea “it was only a majority of those who voted” as a non-cretinous nod to all those electors who didn’t vote and the multitude of factors and motives that kept them on the fence and that have been written and speculated about at length, and whose non-voting contributed to a result so close that even Nigel Farage, on the eve of the vote, declared would mean “unfinished business”? Unfinished business, as the past several years have shown, is very much what we now have. In other words, a democrat would be right to continue to consider the wishes of a non-voting segment of the electorate even though a ‘winner’ was long since declared, since those (largely unexpressed) wishes coupled with a dodgy election process have apparently landed us all well up the creek without a paddle.

    ReplyDelete
  19. "Turkey was about to join the EU."
    Ironic that the UK leaving the EU removed that possibilty.
    Johnson particularly wanted Turkey to join, but the UK was pushing that membership generally.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Another fantastic article with many of the comments being just as thoughtful. Please continue with the blog, it is appreciated by so many. Best regards.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I point out how many slogans of these sovereignist patriots are identical to certain statements of nations hostile to the EU and UK. For example, Putin hates the EU and you have Brexited, Putin hates NATO and you have voted for Farage who proposes to leave the ECHR and NATO; as soon as the riots calmed down, a controversy began that putting in prison those who commented on social media makes the UK equal to China.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Chris, I have to side with other commenters above that its hardly "cretinous" to raise the mathematical fact that only 37% of registered voters voted for Leave. Whatever the democratic rights and wrongs (a debate in itself), this has had inevitable important political implications - not least for the Conservative Party and sensible conservative political thought.
    Thanks for the excellent analysis of the current events.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If Danny Dorling is correct, that number reduces to more like 33% if you express it as a percentage of those eligible to vote.

      Delete
  23. I agree with other commenters about the 37%. I'd also point out that the Brexies were selling Leave on the basis of staying the SM and CU on the "exact same terms". It was a fraud from start to finish, and should be treated as a fraud

    ReplyDelete
  24. A brilliant peice Chris, and a timely antidote to the apologists for the recent and hand wringers looking in the wrong direction for answers.

    ReplyDelete
  25. It puzzles me how these people constantly complaint about uncontrolled immigration. Since Brexit and the abolition of FOM, all immigration is controlled and follows strict and costly procedures. Immigration has increased by previous Government's choice. Could anybody explain this to the Deform headbangers?

    ReplyDelete
  26. Chris - Thank you for another thought-provoking post.

    Some commenters have taken issue with your ‘cretinous’ remark but, despite well-argued counter-views, I think the key point is that a very specific version of Brexit has already happened and is not reversible (irrespective of any concerns about its democratic legitimacy).

    Importantly, the riots were a manifestation of ‘Brexitism’ - that ‘pot pouri’ of anti-immigration, anti-establishment, pseudo-betrayal, general discontent, isolationist and pseudo-nostalgic sentiment stoked by charlatans masquerading as serious politicians/activists/journalists.
    Another feature of Brexitism is the proffering of simple solutions to complex problems and subsequent criticism of the implementation of any version of such solutions as being ‘incompetent’ and ‘lacking in true-belief’ rather than being fundamentally flawed to begin with.

    Brexitism is a scourge that needs to be identified and challenged every time it raises its ugly head.

    Keep up the good work.

    ReplyDelete
  27. “polling [...] which shows, amongst other things, that only 13% think the rioters represent ‘the real Britain’ but 87% think that those engaged in the clean-up do so. Meanwhile, only 23% think the riots stem from ‘legitimate concerns’ and a mere 17% think those involved in them are ‘standing up for Britain’.”

    I don’t think that the 13% and 17% above are low numbers, quite the opposite. If the respondents had been asked about some ‘mildly’ racist attitude, I’d understand the use of the words “only” and “merely” in reaction to these polls. In fact they were being asked about pogroms during which violent mobs tried to burn terrified asylum seekers alive in their accommodations. And one in six/seven people in the UK have a positive attitude towards these pogroms! That’s half the number of supporters a party needs to have a chance of winning a landslide election victory under the FPTP system. These poll results should strike terror into our hearts, not make us complacent.

    Also, in response to the last post on 2nd August: I have really enjoyed reading this blog over the years. During the awful period of Tory government, I mostly found myself nodding along in agreement. Now that the Tories are out of power, I find it even more interesting and valuable. I sometimes disagree (as per my comment above), but that is a good thing. In my view it would be really great if you continue to contribute to a productive discussion among progressives on how to turn things towards a better future in these dangerous times.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is a very fair point and I agree that those numbers are a cause for concern, and in that sense are ‘high’ rather than ‘low’. But the reason I highlighted their lowness was in the context of my point that the rioters don’t represent ‘the silent majority’ or ‘most ordinary people’.

      Delete
    2. I understand the point you were making, but I think it was a bit of a straw man argument. Nobody is suggesting that a majority of Britons approve of rioting. The survey you quoted was set up in a way as to deliberately minimise the number of respondents expressing sympathy for the rioters. When asked to choose between

      “The people involved in the riots are ‘the real Britain’” and
      “The people who have helped to clean up after the riots are ‘the real Britain’”

      I’m sure even Lee Anderson would grudgingly choose the latter. So the 13% who sided with the rioters and against the “people who helped to clean up” have the most hardcore rightwing attitudes you could imagine. The number of people in the UK who, like Lee Anderson, have sympathies with the rioters, but aren’t willing to admit to such a crass statement or genuinely think that trying to burn people alive takes things “a bit too far” is certainly much larger than 13%. We don’t have to argue how large and I’m even willing to concede that the liberal part of the UK outnumbers the reactionary part of the UK. My point is that for authoritarianism or possibly even fascism to take hold it doesn’t require the consent of a majority.
      The UK’s FPTP election system would normally constitute a firewall against authoritarianism if there was a mainstream Conservative party that leverages its brand to suppress the far right. The problem is that Brexit has destroyed the old Tory party (even though the brand endures) and in the vacuum left by the centre right, anything can happen. All it now needs is a Labour government that fails to improve living standards and a re-alignment among authoritarians that allows them to concentrate their vote on one party.

      I wrote my comment because I feel that progressives should be woken up to the danger of the (historic) moment, not reassured with descriptions of liberal “real Britain”.

      In Germany’s 1928 election a majority of the electorate voted for leftwing and moderate parties. The Nazis got less than 3% of the vote. Only 5 years later Hitler was in power, leftwing politicians had fled the country or were imprisoned and the moderates had been cowed into submission. History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does provide lessons.

      Delete
    3. Have a look at the final sentence in this article - ‘waking up to an extremist party with 15% support’:
      https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/2023/06/24/an-irish-historians-new-theory-of-nazism-the-idea-makes-people-nervous/

      Delete
  28. Fewer migrants, not less?

    Thanks for a superb article. Yours has been the clearest and sharpest voice on Brexit for years. Thanks ever so much.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Now corrected. Thanks for that, and for your very kind comment.

      Delete
  29. Excellent article; please continue!

    ReplyDelete
  30. On the question of democracy's mechanics I thought it was manifestly unfair that British many people resident in the EU were excluded from voting in the referendum and their concerns were dismissed "as it was only advisory". The steamrolling by the English of the rest of the country too was, if not cretinous, highly regrettable.

    Consider, after all, that Brexit was directly enabled by English outrage at the idea of Scots having any disproportionate influence over their affairs - - I refer to the 2015 billboards all over rural England showing Alex Salmond picking an Englishman's wallet from his back pocket. These contributed to the Tories wining an outright majority and thereby to the referendum.

    Recently I saw a clip of Andrew Pierce of the Daily Mail on television demanding querulously to be given an example of his paper's alleged stoking of racism. Whether this was just Tory mendacity as usual or a symptom of something actually clinically wrong with his self-awareness faculties I can’t say. I hope someone sends him this blog post

    myblackface.wordpress.com/2024/08/08/riots-cartwheels-and-brains-interrupted/

    ReplyDelete
  31. Thank you, Chris, for the years of reasoned, informed and downright fascinating blogs on Brexit. I emigrated to the U.K. permanently from the US in 1973 as an adult and therefore only really knew the U.K. as a part of the EU. Whether this made leaving more of a wrench than those of my age who had lived through a “sovereign” period before joining, I can never really know. What I do know however is that the whole process of the referendum was one of the most botched political exercises I have ever lived through. It could never have given a satisfactory result as there were no proper procedures or rules for either campaigning or how leaving would really be implemented if the vote went that way. The fact that it was technically an advisory vote made it much worse - no rules need apply as it was only an “opinion “. Yes the 37% really matters in a mandatory vote. Yes the lies, exaggerations and lack of definition of what kind of leaving matters. No one expected leave to win, so none of that was thought to be necessary before the referendum. Leave won, it was posthumously declared mandatory and it was too late to address it then. It couldn’t have been worse and we will live with the disastrous consequences long after I am dead and gone. I hope a political lesson was learned, but I doubt it.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Excellent analysis. Enjoy your well earned summer break.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Quite a few commentators are unhappy about my line “let’s please leave aside the cretinous point that it was ‘only’ a majority of those who voted – that’s how democracy works”.

    Well, I stand by it, but before coming to that issue I’d like to make a general point (this is emphatically not aimed at the particular individuals who raised this particular issue), and it is that I’m sometimes struck that there are people who read this blog, and who mostly agree with it, and who apparently quite enjoy it when I pull apart Brexiter logic, but who get quite upset if I do the same with some element of ‘remainer logic’. That does suggest a degree of tribalism. After all, such readers might think ‘well, I think this guy is normally right about things, so maybe he is right about this’, or just ‘maybe on this occasion, it is we remainers who have got it wrong’.

    Anyway, to the issue at hand. The ‘only a majority of those who voted’ argument, often rendered as ‘only 37%’ supported Brexit is clearly intended to suggest that the result was democratically invalid in lacking a majority. But what makes a vote democratic is the franchise i.e. that people had the right to vote. Those who choose not to vote do so for all kinds of reasons, but they do so with one single effect: they leave the choice to those who do vote.
    It’s true that, as one poster said, some countries make voting compulsory (I know this is so in some GEs, though I’m not sure if any do so referendums?). But that has never been the case in the UK and it is a different argument, and unless one takes the position that any vote that occurs without compulsion to vote is by definition undemocratic – which would surely be rather bizarre, in rendering most elections ever held as undemocratic – it doesn’t make the referendum or its result undemocratic.

    [Continues below ...]


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That argument aside, it’s notable that the others which posters have made about the 37% issue are actually all about *different* concerns about the referendum including: the multiple meanings attached to Brexit, the disenfranchisements of some British voters overseas, the legal status of referendum as advisory, the ignorance of the electorate as to the issues involved, the lack of a supermajority requirement, and the political implications other than those of whether it was democratic.

      Of these, the only one which tangentially relates to the 37% argument is the disenfranchisement of overseas voters, because that did affect the franchise (obviously). I think it relates to those who had lived abroad for more than 15 years. And I agree this was wrong (for that matter, I agree with the other reasons given for why the referendum was unsatisfactory, though see below), but the numbers involved were too small, I think, to have made much difference.

      Even so, people may think that “cretinous” was too strong a word. But the reason I use it is because I think that the ‘37%’ argument (and the ‘but it was only advisory’ argument) were both disastrous rabbit holes that remainers went down. I understand why, in the shock and hurt of the result, people did so, but it set up the idea that remainers were undemocratic and opportunistic. Because it *was* opportunistic. We all know that if the result had gone the other way, then remainers would have said it didn’t matter that ‘only 37%’ had voted and would certainly have been incandescent had the government said ‘well it was only advisory, but we’re going to ignore the advice and leave anyway’. We know that, just as we know that, in those circumstances, the Brexiters would have not accepted the result and pushed for another vote, and no doubt said ‘it was only 37%’ who voted remain, not the majority – to which those of you now disagreeing with me would undoubtedly have said ‘but that is a cretinous argument’! (And even if you wouldn’t, I would). This, by the way, is an example of why I think the problem here is one of tribalism.

      That opportunism had a dire political consequence. It meant that the People’s Vote campaign became tarnished as being one which didn’t accept the 2016 result and wanted a ‘second referendum’, whereas it was actually a campaign for a confirmatory vote in the light of the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement. OK, lots of issues about that and the PV generally, but my point here is just that those banging on about ‘only 37%’ (and ‘only advisory’) really damaged the PV case and, given how easily it might have gone the other way, may even have damaged it decisively. It certainly didn’t help.

      [Continues below ...]

      Delete
    2. That’s past history, of course, but, now, I think it has become even more foolish to continue with this line of reasoning. It makes any movement to join the EU seem (and not just seem, but be) backward-looking, endlessly picking at the scab of the 2016 referendum, rather than making the forward-looking case for membership. And it also fails to really accept that Brexit was something which the UK collectively did to itself, by effectively treating it as a kind of anomaly, foisted on the country over a few days in 2016 (see also the final section, entitled ‘Them and us’ of my post of 26/04/34 entitled ‘Still not facing up to Brexit’). Actually, the more time goes by, the more obvious it is that there were deep and longstanding reasons that brought Brexit about, and which would need to be addressed if joining in the future is to be viable. They can’t be addressed by constantly focusing on trying to discredit the referendum result.

      Lots more I could say about all this but I have already gone on too long! So just one final point. Leaving all the rest of what I’ve said aside, what, really, is the point of once more saying ‘it was only 37%’ (or, for that matter ‘but it was only advisory’)? Does anyone seriously think that now, 8 years on, there is anyone who is going to hear you say that and think ‘oh, that’s a good point’, well we’d better undo Brexit then’?

      In short, it was never a good argument, it became a damaging one, and now it’s an irrelevant one. Let it go.

      Delete
    3. For however much (or little) it's worth, coming from somebody on the other side of the world, I think you are absolutely and emphatically correct about this point.

      Also, I bring knowledge! You wrote 'It’s true that, as one poster said, some countries make voting compulsory (I know this is so in some GEs, though I’m not sure if any do so referendums?).' I live in one of those countries in which voting is legally compulsory and, what's more, in one of those where that law is systematically enforced (of those countries where voting is legally compulsory, there are many where nothing is done to enforce the law). It's also one of those rare countries where our national constitution cannot be amended without a referendum, which makes them a recurrent (although not exactly frequent) feature of our politics. And, yes, to answer your question, here (in Australia) the law about compulsory voting applies to constitutional referenda in exactly the same way that it does to parliamentary elections.

      J-D

      Delete
    4. The bit I find most fascinating about referenda in Australia is that only 8 of the 45 have passed. And the edge cases which fail are usually related to granting the federal government greater powers (the Australian federal government has far fewer powers than the US federal government).

      The question of referenda in parliamentary systems is a difficult one. The Netherlands we have also struggled since there are always group who see it as an ideal, but it simply doesn't fit in well with the cultural tradition of 'polderen'. One doesn't live in a small dense country with a persistent (sea) water problem by using referenda to give one side a leg up on the other. You have to get everyone on board, even if it takes longer. Referenda just don't help creating consensus.

      The only place where they seem to work ok here are at the local council level, dealing with extremely practical and local issues. And even then, they often do a bad job of balancing the options.

      @Chris I think you're right on point with the 37% argument. In the real world the referendum was played by the rules of the game and so it was a legitimate referendum. Complaining after the fact that you didn't like the rules gets you nowhere. It just makes you a sore loser.

      If you don't like the rules, change them (using the rules of the game to change them).

      Delete
    5. But the rules were not followed. Complaining about this (for example, to my MP) has got me nowhere. I have never been given a satisfactory explanation for why it was ok to break the rules, but I have received made-up accusations, such as that I am just a sore loser (and now, from Chris Grey of all people, the implication that I would not be bothered if the Referendum result had favoured Remain).

      Delete
    6. To Donald Hardie. I don’t believe Chris Grey in any way undermines your views or feelings. I would suggest all he would like now is if you can turn those good ideas of yours towards the future, where they will carry more weight. No one is denying your opinion, rules were broken and it was wrong in a lot of ways, but as we know, time moves on and the world doesn’t always revolve around our personal hopes and fears, especially not in the bittersweet nature of British politics.

      Delete
    7. To Anonymous 23 August 2024 at 14:07

      It was Chris Grey who claimed that the 2016 Referendum vote was how democracy works. I know that he considers the result to be legitimate. On those two points (as opposed to most of what he writes) I disagree with him and with the defence he puts up to support those particular views. They are issues relevant to the future.

      I do not want to sound too much like Dominic Cummings when I say that the world does revolve around the laws of physics and maths. People do not have free will and are very much influenced by what they absorb. If they continue to believe that the Referendum was democratic, what does that say about the part that precedent plays in our constitution? Will it be claimed that a further referendum would be necessary before major steps could be taken to undo some of the damage? If so, what are the chances that that new referendum would be truly legitimate and would convince other countries of British stability?

      Delete
    8. Yes, certainly Britain leaving the EU created a myriad of unanswered questions and differences amongst many good souls and it’s incredible that it was ever seen in such a binary image. We would surely require the result of any future referendum to be deemed legally binding before it takes place and also, for the referendum to be declared validated, turnout must be over 50% of those on electoral lists. Also, independence must be approved by at least 55% of voters? But it’s like closing the proverbial stable doors after the horses have bolted isn’t it.

      Delete
    9. People are too far away from their principled understanding of what is an acceptable Brexit . They have been ignored, bullied and misrepresented in numerous ways by scheming, greedy ideologists. So here we ( still) are.

      Delete
  34. I think that the problem is that there have no adverse consequences for the fraudsters who managed to get Brexit over the line. In any other walk of life such industrial scale lying and misrepresentation would have seen its perpetrators up in court. Brexit has corrupted our public life and politics to such an extent that any sense of a unified nation has become impossible. Of course this suits the primer movers behind Brexit - a fractured and divided nation is great for its enemies abroad and its exploiters at home, but until and unless those who brought this about are brought to book I can't see the country recovering, either economically, socially or politically. I write from Scotland, and frankly what i want to see is Scotland out of the UK, and back in the EU, something which I hope I will live to see - I'm 66

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Though scant consolation, the ringleaders seem to be regarded as toxic in the business world. Outside of the right wing media sector, don't expect any of them to crop up in respectable board rooms - especially as consumer oriented firms target the crucial 35-45 demographic. This possibly also explains why figures like Johnson and Truss now seem to be angling towards the Trump/MAGA sphere.

      Delete
  35. Personally I think the referendum was indeed flawed, largely because the franchise was so different between the Scottish referendum in 2014 and the EU one in 2016. This is because the British system is not used to a Referendum in a Parliamentary system. I studied politics at A level (I passed) prior to the 1975 referendum....

    One of the issues to be 'cleaned up' before any future referendum on EU membership is how we use referendums and their parameters. Perhaps even if the UK changes to a PR system, this will still need to be done. There are good examples of countries that use referendums to make decisions, the UK should make use of some of that expertise.

    Totally agree that any future move towards closer UK-EU ties should be forward looking and not hark backwards. It was a legitimate vote.
    There are plenty of good choices that can be promoted as future policy.
    It may be that security/defence issues force the UK's hand, maybe a Trump presidency, who knows?. My own view is I think it inevitable the UK will be in some sort of European organisation. After all the UK founded EFTA in 1960 as a competitor sort of organisation to the (then EEC) EU.
    If the UK is not to decline further (see demographics and loss of R&D, supply chains etc) closer ties will be part of the future. The politics is actually lagging behind, UKIP/Reform are already yesterdays men and women, even if the riots have been a sting in the tail.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ‘a legitimate vote’ you say?
      Sorry but the Leave campaign was based on a tissue of lies, a false manifesto. The main one being the message heard up and down the land that the UK would stay in the single market, either said overtly: ‘only a fool would leave the single market’ (Mathew Elliot Chair of Leave) or implied as Gove did when asked a question in a town hall about keeping FOM and the right of retirees to live in the EU, he replied “we will get a comprehensive trade deal that preserves all those rights”. At best the 52% yrs vote was permission for a soft Norway style deal.

      In the recent GE Labour published a comprehensive manifesto and if it suddenly dramatically changes its plans saying ‘but you should have realised that we plan the total nationalisation of most business with no compensation then it would face a massive groundswell of public demand for a new GE now.

      Brexiters destroyed the future of the UK by selling a monstrous lie and new referendum for permission to start rejoining talks (which will take a decade) must be held soon.

      Delete
    2. Thank you for your comments. I agree with you, but the issue is the use of a referendum in a parliamentary system. That is where the conflict arises. Most countries that use referendums have a binary, if this than so, and if not then so with results or at least a pretty good direction spelt out. Using a binary non binding refendum to define any of multiple outcomes is not a good idea as those who 'won' are finding out.

      The great value of Professor Grey's work is in documenting this struggle and the failure (in my opinion) of introducing direct democracy in a parliamentary system unused to it. The conflicts in the parlament of 2017-2019 were epic, it will historically be a very interesting parliament. The atmosphere in Parliament Square the day the Letwin Benn Act passed (a Saturday coinciding with a People's Vote march) was electric.

      To be very honest I expect the UK to rejoin in 2035 or 2042 because that is in line with the EU MFF settlements. It could be another time but I doubt it will be sooner sadly. As my own heritage is half European (French and Danish) and having made great use of the EU single market professionally in supplying design services, it is a big loss outside.

      Delete
  36. The choice is, do you listen to the people of Britain or do you ignore them? I voted Remain, but in the 2016 referendum 17 million people voted Leave. Do you ignore that, dismiss them as ignorant idiots, or do you take it on board.

    After the referendum, millions of people (including 70% in the town I live in) were dismissed as uneducated, ignorant, dupes who were conned by a slogan on a bus, whereas those who voted Remain were exalted as wise, far-seeing intelligent people. Further, there was no attempt to understand them. If they were dismissed as idiots, that fulfilled a need, but it didn't turn a single Leave voter to Remain. It turns out demonising people is a bad way of getting them to vote for you.

    There was also a democratic aspect. In the recent General Election, Labour won and the Tory Government lost. At no point did Sunak say, "Eh, actually, it's best of three so I'm not quitting Downing Street" nor did he say "I lost the election but I'm right really so I'm not quitting No 10". But in the 2016 referendum many of the side that lost didn't accept that loss and accept the consequences that flow, much as Sunak DID accept the consequences of the election: he lost and the consequences that flow from that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. As the comment above by Epincion notes, what did those 17 million Leave voters vote for?
      The fact is that the entire Leave Campaign was s series of lies and at best that Leave vote was for a soft Brexit into a Norway style relationship

      Delete
    2. We grudgingly accepted the result.
      We asked the winning side how they were going to implement what followed their victory
      When they said 'Blow me, we don't know - that's someone else's problem, all we want to do is Leave', with respect, we got a bit miffed.
      And that's the kernel. At no time from 2015- today has anyone on the Leave side actually outlined how Leave would work to our advantage. And, with respect, what should you call a movement that has no idea how to implement its key desire?

      Delete
  37. I have been reading your blog since the beginning, and it has been, as I and others have mentioned, a shining beacon of light through the very dark years of Brexit.
    I do, however, take strong exception to the term 'cretinous' to insult people who have the opinion that the result of the 'advisory' 'democratic' vote cannot be disputed with the flawed dismissal 'that's the way democracy works'. You are effectively calling me an idiot, someone of unfinished mental development, stupid.
    I believe the vote was flawed from the beginning, flawed in concept, execution and implementation- yet you deny anyone who refused to vote for such a flawed proposal (to participate in the vote was for some to legitimise it) their legitimate opinion/ stance by childish name calling beneath your usual standards. Furthermore, to anyone with decent intelligence, the vote was riddled with ulterior motives and the outcome merely signposted and leveraged a very British coup d'etat by the establishment to hide and retain their ill gotten gains over centuries of criminal, amoral activity.It was also a vote to reduce the cost of cheap labour, hence the rapid rise of cheaper workers from 'poorer' countries since Brexit.
    Personally, although British, I was denied a vote due to the 15 year rule, and as I am living and working in the EU with UK qualifications, the vote and it's consequences have destroyed my life (and many others). How is this 'democratic'?
    How is a nation with a hereditary German family as head of state, an unelected upper house, and no written constitution considered a 'democracy'? Surely you jest. The flawed democratic system that gave you the 'democratic' vote is surely contradictory in terms of common sense.
    A joint submission from the Runnymede Trust and Amnesty International UK to the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination revealed that government legislation and policy infringes on key articles of the International Convention for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination – a UN treaty.
    Ilyas Nagdee, Racial Justice Director at Amnesty, said: “The racist and Islamophobic violence unfolding on the streets of the UK highlight the failures of successive governments to make progress on institutional racism.
    “Since the last reporting period, the Committee should be alert to the myriad ways racism and discrimination have been embedded in legislation and policy practice, rather than tackled by successive governments.” The Independent today.
    The UK is an institutionally racist country. Brexit was a sickening outbreak of a diseased body.
    You are looking at things with white eyes (not an accusation, more a teachable moment)- you are right in that the beginning of a meaningful conversation about the future of the UK starts with seeing the world from a different perspective other than the fascism seen on the streets of Great Britain recently, but denying some people their right not to legitimate the self evidently foolish choice offered in such a flawed way as to be designed to fail, is a denial of a legitimate opinion unfitting for such an esteemed blog as this .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. For further reading, I recommend starting with Kalwant Bhopal at the ANNUAL REVIEW OF SOCIOLOGY, Volume 49, 2023 titled; Critical Race Theory: Confronting, Challenging, and Rethinking White Privilege.
      There are some particularly relevant sections regarding issues you have mentioned in this blog that illustrate another perspective on the reasons for white riots and the institutional racism that lies at the heart of the problem in the UK (and beyond).

      Delete
    2. Goodness, what an outburst! It doesn’t even make sense in its own terms, as, whilst rightly complaining that the 15 year rule deprived you of a vote in the referendum, you seem also to suggest that those not so deprived had a legitimate reason not to make use of it.

      So far as my point about the cretinous ‘only 37%’ argument is concerned, I’ve posted three long comments elaborating on this, and nothing you have said meets the points I've made. It’s got nothing to do with the HoL or hereditary monarchy, and to end up linking it to some implication of racism and white privilege is, frankly, ridiculous.

      Ironically, your comment is the mirror image of the kind of things the Brexiters say in its mixture of illogic, incoherence and self-righteous anger. That’s not an accusation, more a teachable moment. If you really have esteemed my blog, as you so kindly say, and seen it as a shining beacon of light for 8 years, then maybe, just maybe, you should give head-room to the possibility that the one sentence that has so enraged you might be worth taking seriously rather than angrily rejecting.

      Delete
    3. Hardly an outburst, there was barely any emotive language on my part compared to your reply, but that’s not important.
      I didn’t conflate the two ideas you were confused about, so don’t blame me for that.
      Regarding the ‘cretinous only 37%’ argument, your previous points are not in dispute, so I didn’t refer to them, just expanded, but if you don’t make the connections, that’s not my fault. The link is there to add to the discussion on race riots, up to you to see the relevance or not, and your brutal dismissal is duly noted.
      Your last paragraph says more about you than me, but shows me that somehow I have offended you, or pushed a button, so for that I apologise.
      This is your blog and, of course you can use whatever pejorative terms to describe the intelligence of some of your reader’s opinions that you don’t agree with, as is your right.

      Delete
  38. I think you should continue with this excellent blog because the Brexit era is only a third or maybe a quarter of the way through.
    Thanks for publishing, it is a very useful reference now and will be very useful in the future.

    This government are now copying the May government in using security and try and cherry pick things from the single market while even mentioning Galileo membership - all while not even finishing the TCA or fixing the rights of EU citizens.

    ReplyDelete
  39. I think that it is reasonable to carry on questioning the integrity of the referendum. We don't allow robbers to keep the proceeds of a bank haul just because the crime was in the past. The frauds were on many levels but one which no-one seems to have mentioned here yet is that because the ref was presented as "advisory" the Electoral Commission had no powers over it. Had the ref been presented as binding, as I believe some previous refs (electoral reform, Scottish Indy) were, then the Electoral Commission would stepped in to object to the way it was run, with no clearly defined steps were "Leave" to win. It was an abuse of the constitutional status of the ref to begin claiming, once the campaign was under way, that it was binding, as Cameron did, largely to try and save his and the Tory Party's own skins from the UKIP wolf. A reason why Brexit is still so toxic, and will never stop being until it is undone, is that Leave won by lies and fraud, and those whose lives have been diminished by those lies and fraud will never accept the ref as legitimate. Yo may well say "so what?" and in a strict sense that's right, because it's done now, but, basically, there is no loser's consent, which is essential for democracy to function.

    ReplyDelete
  40. I agree with you that brexit is toxic for the reasons you set out. For me it is its permanence that is so offensive. We are now past eight years since the referendum, soon it will be a decade, and so on. At some point it must become acceptable to open debate and discussion about how, why and when we can reverse this disaster. A democracy is always entitled to change its mind, that is why, for example, we regularly change our governments. Let's not privilege brexit with unmerited permanence.

    ReplyDelete
  41. The last few comments :
    - one regarding "loser's consent";
    - another regarding the flawed vote, the consequences, and the poor state of democracy and constitutional affairs in the UK,;
    - another regarding Brexit being only a quarter through the process;
    - and another regarding there being no statute of limitations for illegitimate acts;
    .... are all related. The UK will not move on in a positive manner until it confronts what & why it has done to itself, aided & abetted by meddling others. And until & unless it takes the time to seriously look into this, then the adverse consequences will cascade and grow. A lot of Remain voters essentially downed tools when they saw what the Brexit cadre were actually doing. They have quietly closed their businesses, taken early retirement, become economically inactive, moved abroad (or stayed there), laid off their staff, and advised their kith and kin to do likewise. Outside the UK many have cancelled their proposed investments into the UK, and/or sold and exited their exposed businesses that were in the UK. An enormous swathe of EU workers have simply upped sticks and left, typically the most economically active ones. None of these will lift a finger unless they see the original sin being properly confronted, and the necessary actions taken. Brexit is by no means over.

    ReplyDelete
  42. I have always found your blog to be an anchor in pulling together and understanding the multitudinous strands arising out of Brexit. I voted Remain in 2016 and am even more convinced now that I was right to vote as I did. However I regret to say that I profoundly disagree with this particular text both in tone and content, beyond the self-evident point that the riots themselves were regrettable and unacceptable.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Prof. Grey wrote:- "We can either go on trying to appease these unappeasable demands or have the honesty and courage to say that they are unrealistic and do not constitute ‘legitimate concerns’."

    Yes, indeed. However surely the time to say these demands are unrealistic was in the year before the referendum, or even many years before that. It didn't happen then: there were very few people prepared to defend European Freedom of Movement at the time of the referendum (even people who were supposedly in favour of Remain) so why should it happen now?

    Ed Balls and Tom Watson went on TV in the middle of the referendum campaign to say that the they were in favour of Remain but opting out of FoM. Chuka Umunna and Rachel Reeves, straight after the referendum, came out and said that Brexit had to mean ending FoM. Keir Starmer asked Stefaan de Rynk, on the margins of an official meeting, if the UK could stay in the EU and opt out of FoM. Lots of MPs, in the discussions after the referendum were calling for Norway plus (ie membership of the Single Market but no FoM). This was never going to be possible - the EU made it very clear that it wasn't going to unbundle the Four Freedoms and was going to protect the Single Market as it is. Yet a lot of our politicians seemed to be desperate to end FoM and were certainly not ready to defend it.

    Jonathan Freedland wrote in the Guardian just before the referendum that it was unrealistic to campaign for FoM and got angry about Jeremy Corbyn because he was in favour of FoM (without admitting that it was unrealistic to expect to opt out of FoM and stay in the EU). This begged the question as to how the UK had got itself into a situation in 2015/16 in which much of its political class say continuing FoM as unrealistic.

    Margaret Thatcher was an important architect of the Single Market, of which FoM is an important pillar. The UK was very much in favour of expansion of the EU, which meant extending FoM to southern and eastern European countries. Yet when the Polish Plumbers arrived, panic set in and everyone pretended that FoM had been imposed on the UK. I think that there is a need for more investigation about how and why our political class failed to defend FoM. Did they already fear violence around FoM? (Rachel Reeves said that the country would explode if FoM continued.) Did Rupert Murdoch make threats? Is our politics so wedded to focus groups that nobody was willing to say to voters that they were being misled?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. @PAUL ROBSON In answer to your question why there was a 180 degree swing inside the Conservative Party under Thatcher away from the enthusiasm for the EU and acceptance of FOM as an essential part of the SM, to a massive dislike of the EU and rejection of FOM.

      The reason is that Euroscepticism was always a part of the bedrock of the Tories and it was Thatcher who was an aberration.

      She rejuvenated a tired old party was welcomed as an election winner and her Europhilia was overlooked but as her multiple terms in office rolled by and she got the UK deeper and deeper into bed with the EU that ancient disdain, even hatred, of ‘the continent’ rose up like a unstoppable tide and it was one of the major reasons the party ejected her.

      It was back to business as normal of “Britannia rules the World” …..as sole master. Of course those days of the empire are long gone but Brexiters still dream of Empire 2 aka the “White Commonwealth” of GB, Australia, Canada, New Zealand all ins union led and guided by Britain as the motherland and inside this would be full FOM. This new entity would be closely associated with the USA which Brexiters believe is a descendant of “our white Judeo-Christian civilisation”.
      Take a look online at the ideas of CANZUK who were/are a part of the overarching Leave campaign.

      Delete